Howdy. First time here.

On Monday night, after some time of research, I started what is to be a 40 day fast. I've fasted before (though not really; it wasn't a water fast), and I have a lot of experience in exercise physiology and nutrition, but I've still got some questions that research points to different answers.

This is a water only fast, also allowing black coffee, and was allowing lemon water (I'll explain) until I changed my mind on that this morning. I haven't seen any real reason to avoid the black coffee; nothing pointing to interference with Ketosis or stimulating the digestive system. The coffee hasn't stimulated my stomach like trying the lemon water did. (If I'm wrong, tell me.)

The reason I was going with lemon water, which brings to the first question, was to try and offset the blood acidifying effects of the ketones and toxins in the bloodstream. Research told me that the detox effect can overacidify the blood if not preparing with a week of raw vegies, etc. (I didn't prepare--just drank a lot of psyllium husk to clean me out.) And I already knew that burning fat too quickly (i.e. Ketosis) is very acidic to the body, which is why all the conventional docs, Men's Health, etc.,say to avoid losing more than a pound of fat a week. Anyway, there was concern among fasters that doing too much would make a person sick and give up the fast early, so I planned on a lemon squeezed into water each morning to help alkalize. But I saw right away this morning that that wouldn't work, because the lemon juice clearly stimulated my stomach, stomach acids, etc., so would likely interfere with Ketosis. I've ordered some PH strips to keep track of my saliva PH levels. But without the lemon juice, or ACV or something, how can I alkalize my blood without waking up my digestive system and/or interfering with Ketosis? Or is it not really a concern? Any thoughts?

The other question was about exercise. Researching fasting last time I did it told me to exercise several times a day, at low intensity (walking, light jogging, calesthenics, etc.) in order to discourage the body from cannibalizing skeletal muscle (the kind you want to keep). However, I know from learning more now that the proteins are gleaned from muscle solely to provide small amounts of glycogen (or glucos, don't remember) for the brain and other select functions that rely on it. But if I exercise to discourage the use of muscles we work out intentionally, it's still got to come from somewhere, right? You can't really hold off on that at all, huh?

And what about the controversy of exercise vs no exercise? That Doc Alan Goldhamer says to be at rest during a fast, because moderate activity will double the use of protein. But my previous research indicates the exact opposite. And some people on this forum even encourage active strength training. Thoughts? And what if I do actively strength train--do full weight training workouts? If I break down my muscles, without protein intake, how do they rebuild or even become stronger? Converting ketones into proteins?

Lots of contradictions in all of this.

Btw, keeping a vlog of this fast on my youtube channel:
youtube.com/user/renzor51

Please let me know. I'd love to have some real answers that aren't laden with foofy theories and bias towards veganism, or against non-pure stuff, or whatever.

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(Edit)

Something else I forgot to ask about ... thirsty! I'm drinking far more water than I usually do (I'm probably usually in a state of chronic dehydration in normal life), but I'm still thirsty. Mouth dry. Carrying water around everywhere, not sweating all that much, but drinking almost a gallon of water a day since I started, and I know I could drink more if I followed my impulses completely. What's with that?

Also, I wasn't aware there was a 'Ask the Fast Doctor' section. Maybe this post would be better suited over there.

Hello Renzor51 I moved your post to The Fast Doctor's section as he would no doubt be the best person to give your post the adequate answer you are looking for. However I would also like to give you some feedback. The 40 day fast is what has been coined the "Epic fast" and we encounter it often on this site. However since I started this site 6 or so years ago there have only been three perhaps four site members who completed their 40 day fast without the support of a fasting retreat or full time natural hygienist. On average there is one person a month who like you is very keen to plunge into the deep end and go for it. But what we have found thanks to a strong support network of dedicated fasters experimenters and health conscious individuals is that there are potential down sides to embarking upon a very long water fast without adequate support from a health professional who is experienced in fasting. For this reason The Fast Doctor and others recommend what we call intermittent fasting as a much more grounded approach and is arguably an equally valid approach to achieving the same ends but over a longer period of time. So concerns like muscle atrophy and the likes no longer enter into the equation. The other approach for avoiding the perils of detoxification is to adopt The Fast Doctor's FIve Step Elimination procedure which deals with the elimination of mobilised toxins, see forum tab above. Yes many if not most natural hygienists recommend rest and more rest during a long fast however many on this site have adopted The Fast Doctors routine and found it to be highly beneficial with dealing with detox symptoms. Others probably the minority find that they just don't have enough energy to employ the active fasting approach. From my experience fasting IS one of the quickest ways to alkalinise the blood it is only in the initial phases of a water fast and intermittent moments during a fast (healing crisis) that the body has an overload of waste to manage. Hence the elimination cycles which aim to assist with this process by eliminating through the skin. As for alkalinity and blood acidity etc from what I recall reading from The Fast Doctor's posts the changes are so minute and fluctuate so much that you probably wouldn't glean much useful information from pH test strips. As for the coffee idea if you could run that one by me again as I really don't get the logic. Coffee taken though the stomach has many negative side effects but apparently the opposite is true if taken as an enema. Plenty on this topic if you Bing it. All told I wish you success on this journey it has been life transforming for site member Ben and Milena who did succeed. And they are both involved with site management.

Hey, thanks David.

Yeah, I'd absolutely love the idea of exercising vigorously while fasting. I'm worried about the contradiction, however, because Dr Alan Goldhamer over in San Fransisco or something said that you could double the protein absorbed for glyconeogenesis (gluconeogenesis?) with just moderate activity.

My one real concern with doing an (epic) fast without medical supervision is the inability to monitor my vitamin and mineral levels. If I'm low on something (I'm pretty healthy, eat lots of different foods (and lots of it), and take chewable multivitamin, C, Calcium, and Fiber--though that's cut out for the fast) I realize if I expend that resource before the end of the fast I'll go into starvation mode. I'll have to be careful, learn more over the month, and hopefully learn how to recognize any warning signs.

Right now I feel great. And the hunger is totally manageable.

I've seen lots of contradictory stuff about coffee interfering with Ketosis, mostly researching induction. But the general consensus I've seen is that it doesn't. Obviously this wouldn't sit well with purists, especially since I'm pulling data from two different 'diet cultures'. But so far I'm not concerned. I'm not worried about purging the caffeine toxins from my body, or curing myself of such an addiction; only the coffee interfering with the fat burning. Which I've read it doesn't, and coffee so far hasn't interacted with my system or stimulated me at all compared to the effects of a little lemon water.

Saliva pH, dear Renzor, is NOT a good reflection of what goes on in the body.. the mere thought of a certain food can change that. Blood pH varies between about 7.35 to 7.45.. anything outside this and you'll find yourself in intensive care, possibly on a ventilator. Bear in mind that the pH in your stomach can go as low as 2.5 and in your bile as high as 8.5. Thus these silly referrals to "acid" or "alkaline" bodies makes no scientific sense.

Your thirst may be stimulated by the diuretic called Caffeine in what you drink.. I never allow Caffeine into my body consciously!

Please take note like I indicated so many times: Fasting MOBILIZES toxins, and this can make you ill. You need to ELIMINATE them also.. that's what HydroTherapies are supposed to be all about.

André

Thanks, Doc. I'm sure that's why I'm so thirsty, since the effects of the caffeine are pronounced without all the food and stuff I normally fortify myself with.

So what about the exercise quandary?

If I do exercise per normal, how do the muscles repair themselves if there's no protein coming in, or even carbs/fat to convert to protein? Are ketones used to repair muscle fiber?

And is it possible at all to increase muscle protein deterioration with moderate (or higher) activity like that Dr Goldhamer claims?

I saw in some other posts about exercise you mentioned priming the fast with a fatty meal to guide toward fat, or being careful not to have a high-protein meal for fear of ketosis guided toward the proteins, but could you explain how that works please?

Thanks.

Hi Renzor,
I already replied to your vlog posts before reading this one. I am astounded at the amount of research you have done on this. I like how you have figured out what you are using the coffee for and what your goal is for fasting. I, personally have never worried about acid/alkaline balance of my body. However, my longest fast was 16 days, after which I weighed 95 lbs, so I don't think I could do a fast much longer than a week to 10 days at this point in my body. But I love to read blogs on longer fasts. (My longer fasts are 10 days LOL) Thanks everyone for contributing to this blog. I found the information exchange very helpful! Best of wishes Eddie and keep up the posting!

So, Doc Andre, would you be so kind as to tell me if ketones can be converted to proteins for muscle building/repair, and if I have to really worry about losing muscle if staying very active, thus alleviating my concern of vigorous exercise while fasting?

Dear Renzor, Ketones cannot be converted to protein as it does not contain the Ammonia-related nitrogen chemical appendage. But it can be used to supply energy so that you do not have to sacrifice proteins for that. There'e MORE than enough protein in your blood to do all the repairs you need.. plus then there's some stores in the liver and some other organs. I have measured serum proteins in up to 45 days of active fasting with no meaningful drop.

If you eat proteins prior to a fast, your metabolism is protein based and will thus preferably convert protein back to its carbohydrate origin, thus maintaining blood sugar and not using fat as effectively. If you eat fat when entering a fast, you will already be "halfway there" towards a ketone based metabolism..

André

Doc, I've started strength training during the fast, regular exercise, trying to avoid rest to keep active and the muscles engaged. However, I've come across a logic uncertainty:

If I'm staying active to discourage the body from consuming skeletal muscle mass, if it still needs protein to convert into glucose/glycogen for the brain, etc., where does the protein come from? If it's not coming from skeletal mass, it's got to come from somewhere.

Also, if I actually 'build' muscle during this fast, where does that protein come from? Are you suggesting that ketones can be converted into protein? Or that there are stores of protein in the body other than in muscles that can be pulled from for 40 days or whatever just like the vitamins and minerals? Your last answers about that is a little unclear.

Intelligent question, Renzor..
1. You do NOT need to convert protein to glucose, as fats (triglycerides) contain glycerol - and 2 glycerols makes one glucose.
2. The brain and heart can metabolize ketones quite well, it is NOT exclusively dependent on glucose.
3. The protein can come from stores such as the Albumin in the serum and some protein stores in the liver and other organs.
4. No you cannot convert ketones to protein as they do not contain amino groups.
Experimentally people have been demonstrated to come of no harm during up to 40 days of fasting so whilst we cannot necessarily explain where the nutrients all originate, at least we know they're there.

André