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Fasting one day per week a waste?

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15 Nov 2009 13:55 #4110 by brucester
brucester created the topic: Fasting one day per week a waste?
Hello,

Was considering fasting one day per week but after reading the below article i'm not so sure:

drbenkim.com/fasting-fast-one-day-week.htm

It basically says that the detox benefits of fasting dont kick in till days 2 and 3 and the body feeds on muscle after the glycogen reserves are used for the first day or 2 till switching over to ketosis.

So in essence, a 1 day fast is muscle wasting, doesnt burn fat and has no detox benefits.

Is there any reason to fast one day per week given the above?

Thanks

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15 Nov 2009 16:21 #4111 by Meditating
Meditating replied the topic: Re:Fasting one day per week a waste?
I have been to Dr. Kim's site before and have enjoyed it. From all I have read, I can't disagree with Dr. Kim's representation of the process that takes place during fasting regarding glucose/glycogen/detoxification, etc. However, like all health treatments, there are benefits and drawbacks and we each have to decide what we want to focus on when we make our decisions.

Something that wasn't mentioned in the article is that by foregoing digestion, the body is given the ability to do what I call housekeeping, meaning the body is better able to repair itself. This is the benefit I always think about when fasting for any duration. This issue is important to me but perhaps to others the issue of temporary depletion of their glucose source is more important.

Since medical studies are so riddled with conflicts of interest and studies are usually only funded if a profit concern is involved, I no longer think medical studies, which seem to be the primary source of knowledge for conventional health professionals, deserve the reliability given to them. In the same breath I would say I truly believe in science, but it has to be good science. Keeping that in mind, I think nature offers better proof of what we can do on a topic like this and since the natural food supply available for most living things is not 24/7, I conclude that the body was designed to thrive absent food for a day, two, or even longer. I can't imagine nature is so punitive that this would not be true. This is just my personal opinion. However. my experience has been that great benefits are realized when fasting for periods of 10 days or more.

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15 Nov 2009 22:44 #4113 by TheFastDoctor
TheFastDoctor replied the topic: Re:Fasting one day per week a waste?
One thing that dr Kim apparently missed is what my research has demonstrated a few times: It DOES INDEED take about 3 days to get your body catabolic, like the good dr Kim points out. BUT it also takes about 10+ days for a well established Ketosis to totally shut down. Thus, once you have achieved a real fasting state, it's as if you have a "momentum" that helps you re-activate the fasting metabolism (Catabolism) within less than 24 hours. Many of my patients (and myself) have become ketotic within 6 hours, particularly when active. But this only holds if you do your fast less than 10-14 days after a previous. Once you have gone fully anabolic again (eaten every day for about 2 weeks), you indeed have to "start from scratch" as dr Kim points out.

Having fasted weekly now for about 30 years, if the theories about muscle damage were true, I would not have been so exceptionally fit and healthy for my age...

André

All my posts are "generic", based on my opinions and experiences only and are not intended to replace the advice of your own licensed medical practitioner.

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16 Nov 2009 03:43 #4115 by kimberly183
kimberly183 replied the topic: Re:Fasting one day per week a waste?
Meditating -

You bring up some interesting issues about conflict of interests and funding of research. What's an easy way to better understanding of how valid the testing is?

A good place to ALWAYS start is in the "REFERENCE" section of an article or work. This will give you the primary sources, i.e. the actual studies, used in the article. A cursory glance at the primary source should indicate where or why the study was done. With some exception, those done at universities are almost always part of doctoral thesis or program research - not ALWAYS but 'almost always'. This means they are usually NOT funded by outside sources but are being done by the researchers as, well, research!

This again is not a Golden Rule, but it is fairly accurate. It's a quick way to make sure this is something to which you should at least read or toss out as hype!

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18 Nov 2009 19:38 #4120 by GymRat
GymRat replied the topic: Re:Fasting one day per week a waste?
There is some scientific research on humans that suggests one day a week fasting is beneficial to your health. Mormons who fast once a month (skip two meals) for religious reasons have been been studied and found to be healthier than expected.

Here is a popular article on this research
www.cbsnews.com/stories/2007/12/10/health/main3602566.shtml

And here is a PUBMED abstract of the technical article
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18805103

Based on this research I have been water fasting once a week by skipping breakfast and lunch for the last year. I figure that once a week fasting might be better than the Mormon's once a month. I have not noticed any significant changes in my weight or general health which has always been excellent.

I just hit 65 and my main interest is retarding aging and maintaining my strength and endurance. I worry that fasting for more than one day will break down some of the muscle and endurance that I work so hard to maintain.

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18 Nov 2009 23:54 #4121 by TheFastDoctor
TheFastDoctor replied the topic: Re:Fasting one day per week a waste?
Interesting post, thank you for this.

Some points to remark on:

"Skip 2 meals".. this implies that we are naturally bound to the illogical tradition of having "3 meals per day" which has absolutely no rationale, yet has become so ingrained in our culture that people seem to think it is necessary or normal.

Bear in mind that, to enter the fasting state, you have to first consume at least all the stored carbohydrates in your body: Blood sugar typically last about 6 hours if you are not very active, glycogen from the liver and muscles extend this to at least 24 hours unless you do vigorous exercise. Only when the carbohydrates are used up do your body look for alternatives, the best of which is of course fat. If however you are not used to fasting, it is easier to switch to protein, a derivative of carbohydrate which, upon being re-mobilized, supplies carbohydrate. That is why it takes up to 3 days of fasting to reliably fuel your metabolism on fat. We who fast regularly for 30 or more hours per week have a practically instant access to fat, simply because it is regularly "forced into" the metabolism.

Thus remember, a fast only starts about 24 hours after your last meal and ends when you eat again. And although it takes up to 3 days to first "activate" your ability to live on your stored fats, this ability remains "on standby" for up to 14 days, so a fast within a week is actually a continuation of the previous..

André

All my posts are "generic", based on my opinions and experiences only and are not intended to replace the advice of your own licensed medical practitioner.

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19 Nov 2009 06:02 #4122 by Meditating
Meditating replied the topic: Re:Fasting one day per week a waste?
FAST DOCTOR: You last post makes perfect sense to me. It sounds like a response that would be natural to animals to ensure survival. You have explained this point before and I have already considered it and made my own decision. however, I am both amazed and alarmed at the conflicts in medical knowledge and am always double checking why I think something is true, false, or unknown. What studies or patient observations do you base your position on?

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19 Nov 2009 09:46 #4123 by TheFastDoctor
TheFastDoctor replied the topic: Re:Fasting one day per week a waste?
Yo are quite right, dear Meditating, that the "medical" knowledge base is compromised by inter alia the commercial interests of the pharmaceutical industry.

My own observations about the presence of catabolic enzymes are based on direct observations and measurements in patients fasting under supervision at Hoogland ( www.hoogland.co.za ) over more than 30 years. Although not all that many patients stay more than a week at a time, a few staying for several months at a time followed the weekly fast and we detected urinary ketones within hours after starting a fast. Those who haven't fasted for several weeks, could take up to 5 days (though usually 3 or less) to start producing ketones.

André

All my posts are "generic", based on my opinions and experiences only and are not intended to replace the advice of your own licensed medical practitioner.

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19 Nov 2009 23:50 #4124 by kimberly183
kimberly183 replied the topic: Re:Fasting one day per week a waste?
Andre' -

It sounds like this is a very dangerous way to eat and live for some. Do you condone this for someone who is already obese?

Considering the processes which begin once you eat, eating a 3000 calorie meal once a day sounds like a heart attack waiting to happen for the obese (and what about the blood sugar?). I personally know of several people, my cousin included, who have died on such a regime. She was anorexic, true, but would gorge when she WOULD eat, and her heart just gave out.

How harmful could this be to someone who is say 350+ pounds and eats a huge meal after fasting for several days or more?

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20 Nov 2009 08:51 #4125 by Meditating
Meditating replied the topic: Re:Fasting one day per week a waste?
Duhhh, I should have recognized the keto stick was an accurate measure. I think I will get some and test myself. I need something to help motivate me to start a week long fast. Nothing like an experiment to do that. Thanks.

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26 Nov 2009 18:34 #4141 by GymRat
GymRat replied the topic: Re:Fasting one day per week a waste?
Andre

Thanks for your comments.

The Mormon fasting research suggests that fasting once a month for a few hours can produce significant health benefits, even without ketosis.

There is a recent scientific study on rats that suggests a way to improve on the beneficial effects of short term, once a week fasting.

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15236765

When the rats were fed a lipid lowering drug (acipimox/olbetam) during their once a week fast, their aging biomarkers were improved as nearly as much as rats that were fasting every other day, or rats that were calorie restricted.

I have been taking this lipid lowering drug during my once a week water fast for the past year with the idea of enhancing the beneficial effects of my fast.

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30 Nov 2009 07:59 #4153 by TheFastDoctor
TheFastDoctor replied the topic: Re:Fasting one day per week a waste?
Hi Kimberley.. your posts are always intriguing, thanks for that.

There are different ways of eating.. Carnivores eat once every few days and Herbivores eat almost continually. We are supposedly Omnivores.. so we can "choose" eating patterns and change between them. We are inundated every day by advice of what is "good" and what is "bad" as if there's a blank truth... which there isn't. Variety is the spice of life.

I do agree with you, it is really dangerous to have a huge meal after a fast. Many people died this way.. most notably some of the liberated Jews after WWII.. the liberators thought they'd do them a favour by giving them large meals.. but when you're fasting, your body breaks down ALL available sources for energy.. thus, if you eat a large meal (an particularly one containing protein) this is broken down very quickly.. and to convert the protein back to carbohydrate, the nitrogen has to be removed. This turns into... AMMONIA! If your liver is not up to changing it into urea fast enough, you effectively get ammonia poisoning.

And yes Meditating, the keto stick is a great way of checking that you are indeed actively breaking down fat. But remember if you burn all the ketones through activity, you really don't need to detect them in the urine.. but can still be catabolic.

André

All my posts are "generic", based on my opinions and experiences only and are not intended to replace the advice of your own licensed medical practitioner.

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30 Mar 2012 15:31 #10617 by Philippe
Philippe replied the topic: Re:Fasting one day per week a waste?
OK. I am now convinced there is no danger to lose muscle mass by fasting once a week. But is there any advantages then?
I run 4 times a week and do weight training 4 times, very heavy, try to build or at least to preserve muscle mass. Should I really fast once a week then?
Of am I wasting my time because mainly 24 hours without eating is not enough to accomplish anything?
What do you think
Thank you
Philippe

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