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Atkins Induction + Intermittent Water Fasting = Awesome Potential

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23 Jun 2012 07:27 - 23 Jun 2012 07:37 #11193 by renzor51
renzor51 created the topic: Atkins Induction + Intermittent Water Fasting = Awesome Potential
Welcome back, fasting forum. You were gone for a while.
So my last fast (check my videos and two other topic posts) was intended to be a 40-day Water Fast, and ended up being 8 days before I broke it. After a period of re-feeding (about two weeks) and getting some cravings out of the way, I began again on a classic Atkins Induction diet, after being challenged to do so by a friend going through it. Which is a cakewalk, of course, after water fasting.

However, although I'm happily in Ketosis again, I'm not burning fat nearly as fast as I'd like, after losing 17.8 pounds in a week during the fast, so theorizing with physiological knowledge and putting a few things together, I came up with a pretty effective combination.

I first wrote about it here, in this blog entry (which I'll also include below):

eddiepatin.com/pblog/index.php?m=06&y=12...y=entry120619-024615

This is a copy of an email I wrote to a fitness friend of mine who challenged me, after re-feeding from an 8 day water fast, to try a few weeks of a classic (unmodified) Atkins Induction Diet. This email has been included on my blog to record my theory of mixing fasting with Induction, after my friend had agreed to keep me on classic Induction for 2 weeks before experimenting on my own.

---

Good stuff, really.

I remember the Induction used to be a lot harder. This is a total cakewalk for me now, after having gone for 8 days without eating a thing. Definitely helps with the whole 'fighting urges' thing.

Anyway, yes, I'll do it classically for 2 weeks, no mods. FWI, according to fitday, my carb intake (not counting fiber) was 16.8, and I only ate carbs on purpose once--a cup and a half of spinach wilted into my buttery sauteed shrimp. Everything else is accidental consumption among meats, (hardly any) cheeses, and vitamins. This is why I mean to say that you should NOT make elaborate salads or include some low-carb carb in every major meal, because you can easily push past 20g. And while you may think you're in Ketosis, you may not be, and you may just be losing weight because of the 1000kcal (or so) daily calorie deficit inherent in Atkins Induction. I'm already down three pounds or something, and I know I'm not in Ketosis yet. In fact, I'm fairly sure that when I did Atkins before, I may have NEVER been in Ketosis, because of all the dairy I consumed, nuts, and occasional cheating. No cheating now, of course. After a fast, you don't have to cheat. ;)
(Did I mention that the fast was part experience, part weight loss?)

Anyway, on to the theory.

My goal is to, through Ketosis and calorie deficit, burn off fat as quickly and efficiently as possible with the least discomfort and interference with normal life. That's why the fasting didn't work, because of the interference with work.

Brad Pillon's Eat Stop Eat operates solely on the premise of achieving caloric deficit by fasting every other day. Or actually, done in a weird way to make it easier where you still eat something every day, say 6pm to 6pm of fasting. I don't require the luxury of eating every day, with determination, so I'd be more inclined to not eat for 32 hours: going to bed, not eating the entire day, going back to bed, then eating in the morning. Brad doesn't talk about Ketosis, but he claims that a 24 hour fast is a decent amount of hours, that (with exercise), sugar fuel can be all burned up, leaving the body in optimal fat-burning mode (i.e. ketosis) during the last few hours before breaking the fast. Pretty wimpy, I think, but it's easy for most people, and it works. He takes all the common exercise theories about metabolism affected by 'starvation mode', weakness from fasting, etc., and throws it all out the window as bullshit. And I'm inclined to agree; his math works out.

Atkins incites Ketosis through Induction, by restricting carb intake severely enough to deplete the body's glycogen and seek Ketones as a fuel source. However, by continuously eating, one is left with fullness, does not experience hunger (although is hungry more often), and still appreciates a calorie deficit, because you'd have to eat a hell of a lot of meat and cheese and stuff to get the same calories you get in a well-rounded or carb-heavy diet.

Brad Pillon's fasting's weak point is that the fast doesn't last a significant enough amount of time to make the best use of a calorie deficit, and as soon as you go into 'fat burning mode', you're out of it again after just a few hours.

Atkin's weak point is that, though in Ketosis, the body will still seek to use the fuel taken in from the protein/fat diet before it burns Ketones, the calorie deficit isn't used very efficiently, and Ketosis is stalled via using easier fuel (i.e. food).

Mix them together.

Use an Induction Diet. Classic. Although, I'm far more concerned with carbs (even good complex carbs) than you seem to be, because of the accidental intake that could throw off Ketosis. And twice a week (although I'll do it every other day) or so, don't eat a thing. Since this isn't a water fast or anything where you seek to avoid all flavor and shut down the digestive system, it doesn't matter if, on fasting days, you continue drinking coffee, sugar-free drinks, taking vitamins, fiber, etc. Just no caloric intake. Maximize the deficit. And make Ketosis more effective. An appropriate combination of strict Induction with intermittent fasting should burn fat far faster than Induction alone, while still allowing intake and digestion to feel normal, have energy, and normal brain operations.

I'll start this after the two weeks of Induction.

Eddie


Well, Atkins is designed to be easy for people that have a hard time dieting. After fasting, I know I can do something more challenging. To achieve my goal, being less comfortable is acceptable.

Observations:

- With Atkins, having a calorie deficit is still important. You can't just eat as much as you want. Even though Ketosis will burn more fat than non-Ketosis, if you're eating too much and create a calorie SURPLUS, you can really slow progress or not even make any. Don't eat a pound of Bacon. Lol. Not only is it like 1800 calories, but it doesn't digest very well.

- My weight has fluctuated dramatically, which I know is normal over the course of the day, but the fluctuation is probably increased due to the high sodium content of a lot of meats and cheeses, causing constant variances in water retention.


As of now, I'm stopping this slow Induction, and going forward with the plan of fasting every other day, starting this morning after bed. I expect the dramatic calorie deficit combined with constant Ketosis, while still feeding my brain on Induction days to avoid ill effects, will achieve 65-75% of the weight loss potential of strict water fasting, estimated by caloric deficit of this 'diet' versus my water fasting experience, along with the variables of Ketosis and inefficiently taking in calories on feed days (i.e. not storing them in the body as effectively due to increased insulin sensitivity).

Here's the video I made on Day One of plain old Induction:


www.Youtube.com/user/renzor51
(Look for my fasting videos)

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23 Jun 2012 08:01 #11195 by david
david replied the topic: Re: Atkins Induction + Intermittent Water Fasting = Awesome Potential
Hi Renzor I look forward to hearing about your intermittent fast progress. Esmee La Fleur is the site member who entertained this type of fasting for the longest period and also wrote about it in her blog. The Fast Doctor also fasts intermittently and has done so for many years

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12 Jul 2012 06:33 - 12 Jul 2012 06:34 #11348 by renzor51
renzor51 replied the topic: Re: Atkins Induction + Intermittent Water Fasting = Awesome Potential
Updated video. Some changes.



By the way, since this 'planning video', it's now the end of Day 3 on the special diet described, and I've gone from 221.6 to 214 (tonight). I think I'm on to something. Will make a new video soon.

www.Youtube.com/user/renzor51
(Look for my fasting videos)

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12 Jul 2012 07:39 #11349 by TheFastDoctor
TheFastDoctor replied the topic: Re: Atkins Induction + Intermittent Water Fasting = Awesome Potential
You sure don't look like you weigh over 200 kilograms!

Anyway, be VERY careful with Atkins: When we met in the late 1990's we had to agree to disagree and well.. I'm still around. Inducing with high protein causes you to lose a lot of WEIGHT (And bone!) but not FAT.. Protein (muscles, organs) has a much higher density and lower energy content than fat, which is why the scale shows so much if you lose those. Do consider getting a body composition analysis a few times during this process. Physical activity should protect your muscles..

André

All my posts are "generic", based on my opinions and experiences only and are not intended to replace the advice of your own licensed medical practitioner.

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12 Jul 2012 07:55 - 12 Jul 2012 07:56 #11351 by david
david replied the topic: Re: Atkins Induction + Intermittent Water Fasting = Awesome Potential
And although his medical records allege that he suffered from chronic myocardial infarction, congestive heart failure, and hypertension there is no evidence to link this to his diet which he practiced himself for many years. He in fact died at the age of 72 by banging his head after a nasty fall.
Anyhow it seems counter intuitive to consume so much animal based protein especially when our digestive apparatus suggests we are primarily designed as herbivores. However there may be a case for those of a particular blood type that are said to be predisposed for meat eating. Blood Group O

"This is the most common blood group in the UK. Dr D’Adamo says that our digestive tract retains the memory of ancient times, and so type Os need to eat a typical hunter-gatherer type diet. In other words, type Os should follow a high-protein, low-carb diet with lots of meat and fish but no dairy products, wheat or grains."
weightlossresources.co.uk/diet/blood_group_diet.htm

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12 Jul 2012 15:29 #11356 by renzor51
renzor51 replied the topic: Re: Atkins Induction + Intermittent Water Fasting = Awesome Potential
I'm dealing with the 200's in pounds. And this morning I weighed in at 213. :) I won't be in the 200's for long. For my record-keeping, I always weigh myself around 1030pm when I settle down to do stuff after my kid's sleeping, and I know the morning figure is inaccurate because it reflects some dehydration over the night, but I look forward to seeing it. My morning figure would be the lower end of typical daily deviation. :)

My last foray with Atkins gave me lots of pause about eating massive quantities of meat, as I discussed in the video. Not because of ammonia, etc., but because of the lack of calorie deficit (or even having a surplus) which I believes still interferes with induction weight loss, even though many Atkins buffs would argue to the contrary.

Currently, I'm taking in about 750 calories a day:
- Lean chicken, spinach, and olive oil in the morning
- fatty (70/30) hamburger patty with one ounce melted cheese at night

Which means only 3g of carbs, but also only 40g or so of protein, and plenty of fat, too. So I wouldn't call it high protein; just no carb. I did learn over normal Atkins induction (as described in the video) a few weeks back (did it for 9 days until interrupted by a wildfire evacuation, after my 8 day water fast) that it was counter-intuitive to eat too much.

I think the key to successful induction is to cut out the carbs (mostly), but to still maintain a large calorie deficit as well. My current combination of principles and strategies I've encountered through various fasting and induction seems to be working really well so far. I'm losing weight since Sunday as fast, or almost as fast, as when I was water fasting.

www.Youtube.com/user/renzor51
(Look for my fasting videos)

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12 Jul 2012 15:55 #11358 by david
david replied the topic: Re: Atkins Induction + Intermittent Water Fasting = Awesome Potential
Thanks for explaining but how much greens do you eat if any? I am still not too clued up on this Atkins diet as it seems to be based entirely on quantitative factors and very little to do with quality. By this I mean that animal derived products are two steps removed from sunlight whereas fruits and vegetables are only one step removed. So in my opinion a low grade food. You probably wouldn't find a single raw foodie who is over weight even if their intake of calories is high. I haven't met any but I guess I need to put this to member Yuliya who runs the Woodstock Raw Festival. I would definitely agree that it is easier to binge on raw food than on Atkins though. What is important is that you find a system which works optimally for you and if you are also monitoring that the extra fat and protein has no negative side effects then the outcome will no doubt benefit you.

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12 Jul 2012 16:06 #11359 by renzor51
renzor51 replied the topic: Re: Atkins Induction + Intermittent Water Fasting = Awesome Potential
A lot of people misunderstand about atkins. It's not about stuffing yourself with Salami. There's a large focus on healthy, unprocessed foods, although fat (including saturated fat) is still essential. And doing classic Atkins involves shooting for 15g a day of complex carbs, so you still get a little glucose, get fiber, and receive vits/minerals. But it's heavy on working with numbers. But, like you, I thought I knew what Atkins was when I did an induction phase back in 2003, and didn't do it properly like I did recently.

The current thing I'm doing is of my own design; not Atkins, although I've borrowed some elements. And I'm eating 2 cups of raw spinach every morning, which gives me 2g carbs, and an ounce of shredded cheese (on top of my burger) at night, which gives me another gram.

www.Youtube.com/user/renzor51
(Look for my fasting videos)

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12 Jul 2012 16:53 #11361 by david
david replied the topic: Re: Atkins Induction + Intermittent Water Fasting = Awesome Potential
AS I said, if it works for you that IS the key. I know for me that raw would be my preferred diet. Or even better aquavore but harder to implement. Great that you can combine these experiments with fasting. And I look forward to learning more about this process as you will no doubt have more to add once you have reached your ideal weight.

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18 Jul 2012 22:15 #11441 by Shant
Shant replied the topic: Re: Atkins Induction + Intermittent Water Fasting = Awesome Potential
Or low carb paleo with coconut oil and IF :).

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30 Jul 2012 12:57 #11575 by Up, Simba!
Up, Simba! replied the topic: Re: Atkins Induction + Intermittent Water Fasting = Awesome Potential
Hey Renzor, any updates? I'm also IF-ing long-term, and doing my best to shoot for a high protein vegetarian diet on my eating days - though not specifically atkins or paleo. Love to hear how you're going! Don't drop off the radar.

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30 Jul 2012 13:24 #11576 by TheFastDoctor
TheFastDoctor replied the topic: Re: Atkins Induction + Intermittent Water Fasting = Awesome Potential
And I tend to go out of my way to follow a LOW protein diet. Ever since I met dr Atkins in the previous century I studied this and honestly I cannot understand the rationale behind eating so much (amino) ACIDS which is only converted back to carbohydrate anyway.

André

All my posts are "generic", based on my opinions and experiences only and are not intended to replace the advice of your own licensed medical practitioner.

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30 Jul 2012 19:08 #11578 by david
david replied the topic: Re: Atkins Induction + Intermittent Water Fasting = Awesome Potential
Ann Wigmore purportedly consumed mostly sprouts which is in effect a low protein diet. And she lived to 85 and was very physically active until her death. And here is The Telegraph article which claims that health comes from low protein rather than low calories. www.telegraph.co.uk/health/healthnews/67...ey-to-long-life.html

in contrast Dr Mercola has got an article on his site by Dr Stephen Byrnes, PhD, RNCP who makes the following assertion:

It is excessive carbohydrate intake, not protein or animal protein intake, that can result in heart disease and cancer

The article is 10 years old so perhaps it needs updating.

full article here: articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/arch...rotein-part-one.aspx

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