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Cold Thermogenisis: Some calories don't behave like bog standard calories

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08 Apr 2013 21:20 - 08 Apr 2013 23:04 #16026 by david
david created the topic: Cold Thermogenisis: Some calories don't behave like bog standard calories
On my recently compiled list of "Theories of Obesity" I have recently chanced across another one which has a more complex framework taking into account circadian rhythms, diet, temperature and a new pathway in the brain.

There is a direct link between telomere biology, leptin, and cytokines (inflammation). For example, obesity is a brain inflammation disease involving hormonal disruption.
Fat loss is tied to the destruction of leptin levels. Cold destroys leptin and gets rid of our fat cells. Biology requires us to get rid of fat cells on a seasonal basis to reverse our insulin resistance.


I invite you to listen to an interview with Dr Jack Kruse who pioneered this theory hosted by Kim Greehouse of itsrainmakingtime.com/2012/jackkruse/

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09 Apr 2013 08:52 #16036 by TheFastDoctor
TheFastDoctor replied the topic: Cold Thermogenisis: Some calories don't behave like bog standard calories
It does not make so much evolutionary sense for cold to destroy fat cells, even indirectly, as we specifically need fat insulation with it's cold. Are there any scientific investigation behind this theory?

It does make sense to get rid of them seasonally, but that would be in spring rather than autumn..

André

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09 Apr 2013 10:31 #16037 by david
david replied the topic: Cold Thermogenisis: Some calories don't behave like bog standard calories
Thank you Doctor I am not sure about the science aspect but will look into it. I do appreciate your input and I am hoping that we can expand on various elements of Dr Jack Kruze's theories to see how they tie in with the science of fasting.

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09 Apr 2013 12:32 #16040 by Shant
Shant replied the topic: Cold Thermogenisis: Some calories don't behave like bog standard calories
It's exciting that you brought up the topic right now! Recently I've been following the cold thermogenesis protocol to recover from hip pain. i've been doing cold baths (full immerse) after waking up. What i was about to ask Andre many times was again - could this be the new alternative to 5 steps?:

1. Ice cold bath 15 mins -> amazingly increased blood circulation (you literally get out of the bath red!) and shivering (glycogen depletion for faster ketosis set up - I've been studying this on myself last autumn when i was following david's 010 - it worked wonders)
= increased metabolism and activation of brown adipose tissue (possibly)
2. Working out/moving regardless of how intense the exercise should be -> provokes sweating and further blood circulation

plus, cold exposure after waking up has so many benefits - here are some from my experience: it knocks out headache, it's a rather brutal but effective start of the day, it speeds up bowel movement, my skin tone improved, pain killer, great recovery from strenous workouts.

Please, share your thoughts. Thank you.

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09 Apr 2013 12:38 - 10 Apr 2013 16:40 #16041 by david
david replied the topic: Cold Thermogenisis: Some calories don't behave like bog standard calories
Great post Shant! As far as I recall one of the Kneipp protocols is to go into a cold bath or shower and then after a few minutes (don't recall how many) jump into a warm bed and cover up with warm blankets. The effect of this is the body having a big heat reaction which feels exceptionally good. I guess one could replace the hot blankets with a physical workout such as rebounding. I will be curious to know the Doctor's take on this.

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09 Apr 2013 13:04 - 09 Apr 2013 13:06 #16043 by TheFastDoctor
TheFastDoctor replied the topic: Cold Thermogenisis: Some calories don't behave like bog standard calories
This would not be an alternative, dear Shant, it would however fit like a glove in the 4th step (the Criophase). Doing the preceding 3 will make the cold exposure just so much more efficient, more tolerable and even enjoyable.

Definitely same with Kneipp, David: The cold followed by the rest phase.

André

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10 Apr 2013 16:39 #16077 by david
david replied the topic: Cold Thermogenisis: Some calories don't behave like bog standard calories
The difference though in Kneipp is that the Criophase is followed by Pyrophase. Is it not important to get warm again after the Criophase? From my own experience with cold baths and showers when I skipped the warm phase after the cold I did not have a reaction. The reaction being to the cold where the body heats up with a bright glow which can last for around 10-20 minutes.

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11 Apr 2013 06:37 #16091 by TheFastDoctor
TheFastDoctor replied the topic: Cold Thermogenisis: Some calories don't behave like bog standard calories
Absolutely nothing wrong with adding another heat after the Criophase dear David.. particularly in cold climates. Once you have cooled down, the purified blood has been delivered to the deep organs. If heating your skin after that helps you feel better, gr8.

André

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11 Apr 2013 08:47 #16092 by dboxing
dboxing replied the topic: Cold Thermogenisis: Some calories don't behave like bog standard calories
I think Fast Doctor is right here, and on a general basis I think we should be careful with anything extreme as being necessary. In other words, fasting is not extreme; it’s part of our evolutionary biology. Sweating and physical activity are also natural pathways. Exposure to extreme cold on a non-seasonal basis is not something that would be biologically/evolutionary necessary to sustain health. People have not evolved to need an ice bath 1st thing in the morning. People have evolved to need clothes in order to live in certain climate zones. That being said, I have direct experience on the effectiveness of extreme cold therapy. When I was boxing/training, there were occasions where I worked with boxers who had taken a fight on short notice (I don’t endorse this, but I’d been asked to help). Training was intense, 2-3 times per day, trying to get 6-8 weeks of training squeezed into 2-3 weeks. Recovery called for full submersion in ice bath daily (literally get in tub of cold water and have bags of ice dumped in around you) 10 mins in 1 min out, 2-3 times. The ability to recover and reduction in soreness was amazing. That being said, and my whole point, is that it was an artificial condition used to counteract another artificial condition. Two extremes. Necessary for the short term goal, but not required for optimum health.

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11 Apr 2013 09:06 #16093 by david
david replied the topic: Cold Thermogenisis: Some calories don't behave like bog standard calories

Absolutely nothing wrong with adding another heat after the Criophase dear David.. particularly in cold climates.


Thank you Doctor so could the final Stabilisation phase be expressed: Stage 5 Heat/Stabilisation

or Warmth & Rest then I can modify the stage 5 on the faq page to match this.

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11 Apr 2013 11:30 - 11 Apr 2013 11:36 #16094 by Shant
Shant replied the topic: Cold Thermogenisis: Some calories don't behave like bog standard calories
Doctor, i think that cold exposure (such as body immersion in water around 10 degrees celsius for longer periods) would not be a healthy part of the 5 cycles if it was immediately after the heat phase. I just thought that cold immersion followed by exercise/move and sweat induction later would be equal to 5 steps. My idea was to replace 5 steps with this regime: ice cold immersion AM, proceed to daily activities, exercise during the day and have a shower afterwards and then go to bed in the night, and that's what i do. But obviously it's not an alternative. Never mind. Thanks nevertheless.

David, i think it's a matter of what your goals are. If one wants to maximize the thermogenesis effects of cold exposure and continue burning more fat, immediate heat phase miight be counterproductive? If one wants to sweat it out, then probably yes. But have you tried it? You won't sweat that much afterwards.

Re. extreme.. I dont think ice cold is extreme. It pretty much depends on everyones lifestyles, like diet, climate and body fat levels. I have been taking cold water showers in the mornig most of my life and my place may not be pleasant for ever guest in winter for sure because i keep the thermostat low. Extremes don't exist once we become adapted to them and that alters what "extreme" means to begin with. I will always prefer too cold to too warm.

David, really thank you for highlighting something i've believed in for ages! I feel so strong about 'cold keeps my wellness up" yay!! :))

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11 Apr 2013 11:47 #16095 by david
david replied the topic: Cold Thermogenisis: Some calories don't behave like bog standard calories

David, i think it's a matter of what your goals are. If one wants to maximize the thermogenesis effects of cold exposure and continue burning more fat, immediate heat phase miight be counterproductive? If one wants to sweat it out, then probably yes. But have you tried it? You won't sweat that much afterwards.


Shant the way I understood the Cold Thermogenisis is that calories can be processed chemically or can transform directly to heat. If you don't heat up after a cold shower etc you run the risk of lowering your body's core temperature which could nullify the post cold heat reaction which burns off the fat. Can Cold Thermogenisis still take place in this instance?

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11 Apr 2013 11:51 #16096 by Shant
Shant replied the topic: Cold Thermogenisis: Some calories don't behave like bog standard calories
I also forgot to mention that if one decides to follow the cold thermogenesis protocol on daily basis, it would be wise to only do short term fasts :). It's extremely effective and kills appetite on day 1/2 when most people struggle with cravings.
And if one dislikes hot weather, long term fasts towards summer are the better option as fasting cools the body temp down. It's also a perfect time for doctor's 5 steps because it's hot outside and cold tap water and ice is always available to get a good cool down.

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11 Apr 2013 12:04 #16097 by Shant
Shant replied the topic: Cold Thermogenisis: Some calories don't behave like bog standard calories
David, true. If you keep sitting naked, then yes. We should also focus on how the skin looks, if we get blue/white lips.. Body feedback. However, if you keep moving, put socks on, underwear and some basic thin clothes that won't offer you the immediate comfort, i think you still can protect your core temperature? I'm no scientist, sorry. But you will feel that tiny shivering inside, your muscles will tighten up in order to increase body's temperature, so i think that the overall warmth immediately after cold exposure would shut it down. Also we could use the thermometer to check it out if we are ok, perhaps?

PS it's been practiced in cryololisis for many years - if you want to keep the benefits of the cold phase, you better keep the boobies cold longer :).

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11 Apr 2013 15:25 #16099 by TheFastDoctor
TheFastDoctor replied the topic: Cold Thermogenisis: Some calories don't behave like bog standard calories
Indeed David, people tend to warm up in step 5 anyway, so they don't need to do so consciously. Thus we don't need to add "heat" to that. Stabilization implies it anyway. Plus, in warmer climates, an active heat up activity could cause socially unacceptable sweating.

The cold phase need not be icy, as I have often explained, could simply be walking in the sweated state to let the sweat evaporate. And it is only the skin that needs to cool down in order to divert the circulation to the deeper body, which remains warm.

And dear Shant, the efficiency of the 5 steps lies in one following directly upon the prior.. thus for example sweating whilst the blood from the massage step is still dominantly in the skin. Your explanation of thermogenesis i of course spot on. We who try to gain weight do a short cool phase, those who wish to burn more fat could cool themselves down to the core.

Indeed ice cold is not extreme. It likely happened in Nature many times as our ancestors tripped into a deep snowfall or have to venture out from a fire in a cave into the snow outside..

André

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11 Apr 2013 19:32 #16109 by Shant
Shant replied the topic: Cold Thermogenisis: Some calories don't behave like bog standard calories
Thank you very much, Andre, for taking the time to explain this over and over again.

Shant wrote: PS it's been practiced in cryololisis for many years - if you want to keep the benefits of the cold phase, you better keep the boobies cold longer :).

Edit: = cryolipolysis

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12 Apr 2013 07:16 #16112 by david
david replied the topic: Cold Thermogenisis: Some calories don't behave like bog standard calories
Thank you Doctor. I checked out the exact Kneipp protocol as I have the book My Water Cure by Pfarrer Kneipp and on the page where it discusses cold baths it starts with these questions: " In what condition must be the healthy body in order to derive benefit from these cold baths? How long is it permissible to remain in the cold bath? In what season is it advisable to begin this course of hardening the system?"

Answers: "Condition one: whole body must be warm before entering the cold water. Avoid the bath if the body feels cold. And excessive perspiration is not objectionable. To take a full bath undress quickly (so that the body temperature does not cool down) and lie down in the water for one minute. Having quickly dressed ( no drying) again exercise until the body has regained its normal temperature. Not advisable to take more than three such baths weekly. Regarding hardening the system with a view to warding off disease it is imprudent to begin at once with extreme measures, it would be best to go though a course of preparation." p34 When altering between warm and cold baths remain ten minutes in a warm bath and one minute in a cold bath. That is the recommended ratio. p37 Its worth reading the whole book as there are many types of baths and what he calls swathing with wet and warm covers. And he also uses warm baths with pine needles, hay flowers, oat straw etc.

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12 Apr 2013 08:56 #16113 by TheFastDoctor
TheFastDoctor replied the topic: Cold Thermogenisis: Some calories don't behave like bog standard calories
Do bear in mind, dear David, that Kneipp therapy was seldom associated with fasting. The main aim was not necessarily elimination of hydrophobic toxins...

André

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12 Apr 2013 18:54 - 14 Apr 2013 10:33 #16120 by david
david replied the topic: Cold Thermogenisis: Some calories don't behave like bog standard calories
The main point which I wanted to convey was the importance in Kneipp protocols to make sure that the body recovers quickly from the cold. Thank you for your input.

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