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VITAMINS PROS AND CONS

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01 Dec 2009 21:24 #4167 by david
david created the topic: VITAMINS PROS AND CONS



The problem with generalizations when it comes to discussing the pros and cons of vitamin and mineral supplements is that it is very easy to chuck the baby out with the bath water. Some swear by vitamin therapy going by their own personal experience with certain supplements and others give what appear to be compelling reasons why some vitamins and minerals should be avoided.

I would like to suggest that this forum thread is used for specifics only as it then makes it much easier to discuss.

Although my own knowledge of vitamins and mineral supplements is patchy it makes more sense to endeavor to top up on the best vitamins and minerals by eating quality food, chewing as much as possible to extract the maximum benefit from the food, and to undertake any activities which optimize assimilation of food. These may include: Eating in a peaceful environment, eating food which is prepared with care and respect (Gordon Ramsey out of the picture), fasting regularly, not overeating at meals, making sure the body is sufficiently hydrated, eating foods with sufficiently high water content etc.

However I also agree that there are several compelling reasons why one would attempt to complement one's vitamin and mineral intake by resorting to health supplements. Reasons ranging from excessive stress, taxing travel, imbalanced immune system, impoverished soil, environmental pollution,exposure to radiation and inferior quality food to name a few.

The reasons I personally avoid synthetic vitamin supplements is simply because I have a phobia of profit driven pharmaceuticals who fail to put client care before profit. There is also the fact that I do wonder how effective a synthetic version of a vitamin is compared to Mother Nature's version, even though they may be identical in their chemical pattern. And last but not least, is the body really designed to make full use of an isolated substance in relatively high doses? And do any of these synthetic supplements effect the body's own ability to manufacture certain vitamins and minerals?

We must also not forget to differentiate between synthetic vitamins and minerals and extractions of natural minerals and vitamins from natural sources.

VITAMIN A (NATURAL SOURCE)

To be more specific, I sometimes use Cod Liver Oil as a source of vitamin A. And my all time favorite is Spirulina which I use as a rich source of vitamin B supplements and also Beta carotene.


VITAMIN B (NATURAL SOURCE)

Whenever I take Spirulina my facial skin always looks healthier and my complexion changes to the extent where people ask if I have been on holiday or sunning.

MAGNESIUM/CAlCIUM (NATURAL SOURCE)

dolomite tablets. Can't say that I could feel any noticeable difference while being on a course of Dolomite, but I tried them as they were highlighted in the forum as a good source of magnesium carbonate and calcium carbonate.

David

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Average minds discuss events;
Small minds discuss people.
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01 Dec 2009 21:44 #4168 by kimberly183
kimberly183 replied the topic: VITAMINS PROS AND CONS
Hi, David -

Again, personal experience, but I think a consumer has to research credible vitamin companies before just putting something into his/her body. Then be sure to buy them from a credible source.

I know what B-complex has done for me. I was put on the pill for endometriosis. Unbeknownst to me, the pill strips your body OF b-vitamins. I was nearly bald on top. I started taking a B-Complex, and within 2 weeks, I had stubble all over my head.

I also know when I traveled on planes 3 - 5 days a week for a work, I was NEVER sick even if those around me were. I took Emergen-C when I got to the hotel, especially if anyone was coughing or sneezing on the plane. It's a packet you dissolve in water, and it's a mega-dose of Vitamin C and other minerals & vitamins. ( www.emergenc.com ) I have bought it in bulk from the healthfood store for years. The only time I have been sick in the last 7 or 8 years is after being knocked down the stairs last fall by our cat - I got pneumonia laying in bed recovering. I had some issues earlier when we first moved to this house, but that's because my sinuses had been so impacted in Cincinnati, it took about 5 weeks to drain once I got back up in the clearer air here.

ON a related note, I also have helped cholesterol through Flax & Fish Oils, blood sugar through cinnamon, and used a variety of other herbal remedies. I sometimes think it's just unpractical & maybe impossible to think all people can eat enough food sources grown on our nutrient-depleted soils to get all the vitamins & minerals they need.

Have you ever seen the movie "Lorenzo's Oil"? A young boy is diagnosed with a very rare disease, ALD (Adrenoleukodystrophy), a degenerative brain disorder. His parents fought against the odds to help him. The result? They gave him mega-doses of a mixture of glycerol trioleate and glycerol trierucate (the triglyceride forms of oleic and erucic acid), prepared from olive oil and rapeseed oil. He could NEVER have eaten enough to help stave off the disorder.

Everyone is different. Using credible sources of vitamins, from credible sources of informatin, I see no issue with doing what works for you.

Oh, and in the US, many vitamins have the additional minerals & other nutrients already in the supplement to make them effective. Coral Calcium, for example, also contains magnesium and Vitamin D. Decent vitamin companies do medical research here, so these requirements are not overlooked.

So, that's my story! :) (I'm starting to sound like a Led Zeppelin song - Ramble On . . . )

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01 Dec 2009 22:10 #4169 by TheFastDoctor
TheFastDoctor replied the topic: VITAMINS PROS AND CONS
Interesting topic, thank you David and Kimberly.

Of course we should treat disease, and good vitamins or minerals, like antibiotics, antidepressants and all other drugs, are part of the armementarium.

Bear in mind we need about 300 different nutrients, all in a delicate balance, to be really healthy. The diet supplies 60-70 of these, and the others are made by bacteria in the colon. It does not matter HOW much a "manufacturer" researches and refines a "supplement", it will always be inferior to Nature. It might in the short term address some specifics but the risk is in the longer term that the delicate balance will be disrupted over time.

Treating diseases like with Lorenzo's oil is of course what happen in the field of Medicine all the time: Bear in mind that the majority of all registered drugs were discovered in plants and animals, then refined by the pharmaceutical companies.. so even "antibiotics" occurs in nature (eg. Penicillin). All of these may have their uses in the treatment of DISEASE but:

The absence of disease does not imply the presence of health. If you become "non-ill" with the use of a substance (Whether "chemical" or "Natural") it often simply means that the substances you took overwhelmed an underlying disease mechanism and thus removed the symptoms.. it does not necessarily imply that the condition is now "cured".. Just observe how soon after stopping, the diseases recurs.

This of course suits the manufacturer, since it gains a client for life.

André

All my posts are "generic", based on my opinions and experiences only and are not intended to replace the advice of your own licensed medical practitioner.

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01 Dec 2009 22:13 #4170 by david
david replied the topic: VITAMINS PROS AND CONS
Oh yes love that movie and Nick Nolte is a gem. I like the bit where he explains the meaning of the word Arrogant. (his definition was 'to claim for oneself')

There was also Dr Sacks and the Movie AWAKENINGS but I think he used L-Dopa to awaken his patients.

Not exactly a vitamin but still noteworthy story.



"There are a thousand hacking at the branches of Evil, to one who is striking at the root" Thoreau

David

Great minds discuss ideas;
Average minds discuss events;
Small minds discuss people.

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04 Dec 2009 22:14 #4190 by kimberly183
kimberly183 replied the topic: VITAMINS PROS AND CONS
David,

Awakenings is one of my all time favorite movies! Robert DeNiro and Robin Williams are so amazing in it. I cry everytime when DeNiro talks to his girlfriend for the last time. (Yes, it was L-Dopa)

It was so sad for the patients, though, to discover decades have passed. The one who is woken and says that she is still a young girl. That must have been a terrible feeling!

And he throws in Thoreau, too! Also one of my favorite authors!

But my favorite quote of the day?

"If only we were wiser or better people, perhaps the gods would explain to us the mad, unbearable things they do." ~ Orson Scott Card

Well, how's that for tangential thinking?

k

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06 Dec 2009 10:37 #4192 by david
david replied the topic: VITAMINS PROS AND CONS
I think you hit the nail on the head Dr Kruger by underscoring this logical fallacy: The assumption that because we are not diseased we are healthy.

As with most things there is a spectrum of health from the super healthy embodied by perhaps the cave dwelling Himalayan mountain Yogis to a workaholic urbanite with chronic fatigue syndrome from an over stressed life style. It is odd though how few question their state of health if they are not suffering from an ailment often assuming that their state of health falls within the 'normal' bandwidth. I have also noticed that people oftentimes migrate to fasting when their health chips are really down rather than because they wish to boost health levels to above average. This raises some philosophical questions about why we attach so little importance to the study of optimal health in our world. Is it perhaps that we don't wish to be perceived as being 'difficult', 'fussy' or perhaps the pursuit of health is considered more of a feminine activity? Or are we mislead into believing that we can get optimally healthy by having a good work out at the gym or going for a regular jog?

David

Great minds discuss ideas;
Average minds discuss events;
Small minds discuss people.

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05 Jan 2010 06:08 #4237 by TheFastDoctor
TheFastDoctor replied the topic: VITAMINS PROS AND CONS
Agreed fully David.. but back to the title topic:

I am still not convinced about "supplements" having any benefits in other than ill people as most widely published studies are industry funded. Even folic acid has recently been found to potentially cause prblems:
www.anhcampaign.org/news/another-questio...synthetic-folic-acid

and in
cebp.aacrjournals.org/content/17/6/1360.abstract

it is mentioned that the risks of colon cancer is likely increased by folic acid supplements.

Bear in mind that the fasting metabolism (Catabolism) is so different fromt he eating one (Anabolism) that while fasting we are likely independent of many nutrients quite essential during eating (anabolism).

I still prefer to get all my nutrients from food and none from "supplements".

André

All my posts are "generic", based on my opinions and experiences only and are not intended to replace the advice of your own licensed medical practitioner.

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05 Jan 2010 21:53 #4238 by kimberly183
kimberly183 replied the topic: VITAMINS PROS AND CONS
Very interesting links!

But if the folic acid causing issues is the synthetic one, what about the natural sources? I don't regularly take supplements, but I know they have helped me, and I do condone them under correct circumstances. I also only buy ones which are derived from natural sources, not synthetic. In most cases, I buy organic ones.

I wonder if there are adverse effects of a natural supplement? I noticed the second study had to do with patients who already had a history of colorectal polyps. I will have to do a little hunting because now I am curious what the results are for a patient in absentia of them!

Great info!

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05 Jan 2010 23:43 #4239 by TheFastDoctor
TheFastDoctor replied the topic: VITAMINS PROS AND CONS
Even if the original source is "natural", dear Kimberley, they get processed, stripped of their natural "cofactors", preserved (just see how long they can "last" in bottles!) and stored, which makes the claim of "natural" in my opinion purely a marketing ploy.

For example: Beta-Carotene "supplements' were found to increase the incidence of cancer, whereas a DIET rich in beta-carotene has been found to reduce it. There are likely several "co-factors" in the original (food) form, which is lost when the nutrient is extracted into a syrup, powder, capsule or pill..

See for example also:

www.cancer.gov/clinicaltrials/results/final-CARET1204


and

www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/02/090227080834.htm

André

All my posts are "generic", based on my opinions and experiences only and are not intended to replace the advice of your own licensed medical practitioner.

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06 Jan 2010 01:29 #4240 by kimberly183
kimberly183 replied the topic: VITAMINS PROS AND CONS
Thanks for the prompt reply!

I appreciate the feedback - my one thing I always wonder about is if one is deficient in something, how one can possibly eat ENOUGH of it to compensate. Ugh.

Thanks!

k

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06 Jan 2010 23:27 #4243 by TheFastDoctor
TheFastDoctor replied the topic: VITAMINS PROS AND CONS
The answer is simple, dear Kimberley: We need MUCH less than most people believe. We are incredibly efficient machines, and having too much nutrients simply speed up the rate of aging.

Your body will "tell" you what to eat if you are sensitive to its messages, and the taste of food is there to confirm that you eat the right thing. You can easily survive on about a quarter of what the average Westerner eat today and the only real effects will be that you age slower and does not get fat.

André

All my posts are "generic", based on my opinions and experiences only and are not intended to replace the advice of your own licensed medical practitioner.

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13 Feb 2010 14:09 #4419 by graymistfathom
graymistfathom replied the topic: VITAMINS PROS AND CONS
I had epstein barr a long time ago. I was geting sick every six weeks. Doctors told me to go on a massive vitamin program. I did and stopped getting sick. After reading this thread and some other information, I wonder if I could have accomplish the same thing without spending a farily large quantity of money, something like 70$ or more a month, and that was back in the 1990s.

Dr. Kruer, I have come across several of your posts about supplements and how they actually have adverse effects, such as calcium having the reverse effect and taking calcium from the bones. I am tryiing to convert my lifestyle and diet to what I've been reading which is the same type that you advocate. There isn't alot of technical information. Would you have some suggestions for resources dealing with the topic of a healthy diet as you define it versus the typical diet we have in the U.S.? I am fascinated by it all and could use the info in trying to convince my wife to change as well.

Thanks,

Jeff

My wife's reaction was less then pleased when I threw away a large bottle calcium pills (after reading about it, she was taking. :-)

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13 Feb 2010 19:15 #4420 by TheFastDoctor
TheFastDoctor replied the topic: VITAMINS PROS AND CONS
Thanks for the invitation Jeff. Remember that practically ALL people encounter the Ebstein-Barr virus sometimes in their lives. If you don't treat the elimination symptoms too aggressively and for example allow the natural fever response to fully develop, it is a mild once-off disease very much like the common cold. If it keeps recurring, it is likely because the immune system was not allowed to get rid of it in the first place. You might have gotten better because of the "mind over matter" effect of THINKING you're now doing something about it..

The only "vitamin" that would be useful is ascorbic acid (Vitamin C) because your body uses this to produce Hydrogen Peroxide (H2O2) with which to kill the viruses once "swallowed" by the white blood cells. Anything else and well.. if you did get better it might be in spite of, rather than because of, taking them. Anyway, a period of fasting in my experience gets rid of chronic viruses even more efficient.. simply starve them!

If your wife really wish to take some tablet "for bones", point out how the cows not only don't take calcium supplements, they also pump massive volumes of calcium into the milk they make and.. they have massive, strong skeletons! Sometimes, however, people just has to (for psychological reasons) put something INto themselves in order to get something OUT.. if she needs to, natural Dolomite is quite safe as it contains the correct balance of calcium and magnesium, in a form your body can decide to take or not.

There are many good e-books on this site.. just remember that there is no "correct" diet.. we are all different, go through different biorhythms and anyway, sometimes the function of eating is social interaction rather than nutrition.. and that's a valid function!

André

All my posts are "generic", based on my opinions and experiences only and are not intended to replace the advice of your own licensed medical practitioner.

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16 Jul 2010 15:46 #4785 by carolineq
carolineq replied the topic: VITAMINS PROS AND CONS
I'm digging this thread up for a sort of off-topic reason:

I have been giving my daughter Vitamin D supplements, a multivitamin, and two fish oil vitamins daily. The total vitamin D daily intake is somewhere between 1000 and 2000 IU's. She seems to be doing well on this, but I do wonder if this is dangerous.

Secondly, regarding the fever response. She had some nasty reactions to vaccines. Her first 5 illnesses (with fever) occurred within 72 hours of vaccine administration. After her 12 month vaccines, she experienced a high-grade (105 degree F) fever every two weeks which lasted 5-7 days. Literally, she was sick every other week. At the time, we were beating down the fevers every three hours with Ibuprophen and Tylenol per our doctor's recommendations. The fever often would only budge one degree F. She never displayed signs of illness, her lungs were clear, she jsut had this AWFUL fever and usually a little head cold. Anyway, we finally started letting the fever ride as she started refusing medications three months into this little journey and we noticed that she recovered much more quickly. Now when she gets a fever, it only goes up to 104 degrees F, maybe 104.5 degrees F, and often she will be over it within 48 hours, maybe 72 hours. Her frequency of illness is now once every two to three months versus once every other week.

Soooo, I couldn't agree more about the fever reducers... stifling the natural superior response. And second, I do hope by trying to help her, I am not hurting her with these vitamins and supplements... I know this is not fasting related, but still... it's nature-cure.

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16 Jul 2010 19:16 #4786 by TheFastDoctor
TheFastDoctor replied the topic: VITAMINS PROS AND CONS
Be VERY careful with vitamin D: All fat soluble vitamins are toxic in high dosages. I have never used, nor in 30 years of medical practice prescribed these.

It does seem as if the fever response at least indicates her immune system to be catching up.. now do consider allowing her to fast when a fever starts.. this relieves the system from the burden of fighting all the antigens in food, allowing it to concentrate on fighting the infection.

There is just NO proven benefit of "supplements"... except for the bank accounts of the manufacturers. And they do exploit our innate knowledge that leads us towards "natural" substances.. which these are not. It is NOT "nature cure": Nature puts vitamins in "context" within a certain food: There are cofactors, taste, texture, fiber and several other factors that helps the body use the "vitamins" (Name derived from "vital amines" although not all are actually amines). After all, they are only a small number of chemicals selected from around 300 different ones we need for optimal health.

I will still not "take vitamins" nor "supplements" myself.

André

All my posts are "generic", based on my opinions and experiences only and are not intended to replace the advice of your own licensed medical practitioner.

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16 Jul 2010 19:52 #4787 by carolineq
carolineq replied the topic: VITAMINS PROS AND CONS
Thank you! I must say, wow! You think you are helping and you are instead hurting... frightening!

I myself started 5000 IU's per day vitamin D back in late December for immunity boosting purposes during winter. 1.5 months later, I found out I was significantly hypotheroid---... I saw that Vitamin D may pose the possibility of interacting with thyroid hormones, sometimes in a beneficial way, but I do imagine that since it is postulated that Vitamin D may "turn on" genes that product antibodies, that it may also "turn on" autoimmune genes that turn on autoantibodies... I was found to have had an elevated antibody to my thyroid...Thyroperoxidase antibody.

Anyway, when I asked the endocrinologist about this, she just remarked that my question was not answerable.

I think fasting is an amazing thing.

One thing when Chloe has been sick, we offered her sugary beverages in hopes of encouraging her to keep hydrated as dehydration theoretically could lead to the fever going above 106F and higher (danger zones).

But the more I read of Health One and of your posts, I'm thinking about just letting her follow her own lead. When I'm sick, I still get thirsty and drink when I am thirsty, no matter what temperature. Thirst always seems worse than the fever.

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17 Jul 2010 12:09 #4792 by carolineq
carolineq replied the topic: VITAMINS PROS AND CONS
I just visited this website and see vitamin K, like vitamin D, is being promoted now as a cancer preventer... but boy, I really think the trick is getting it in the diet and eating fewer calories such that detoxification of food is not the primary focus of the body... fasting accomplishes that and I think Mercola promotes that.

Mercola

My sister in law makes "kale chips" in the oven and swears they taste like potato chips - her kids love them... who knows how much nutrient is preserved, however. But in the links the Fasting Doctor points to above in the Beta Carotene studies, the articles were clear to indicate it was supplementation... so perhaps as he points out, in its natural form Beta Carotene is not the issue, but the manufacturing, ect... God only knows.

I had purchased this powdered vegetable chocolate-flavored $26 additive containing 10 servings of all sorts of fruits/vegetables for my kids... but my daughter hates it and in the long run, I will just try to get her on veggies. Their daycare allows me to bring food for her which I am very thankful for because it's not their policy but they are letting us due to some very strong convictions on their dad's part. Sooo... I make lots of food for them, but never enough vegetables...

I really need a good book on what healthy things to make for kids that incorporate vegetables. I nursed her for a long time, but failed in the transition to foods. She actually had anemia for a while and still has a hemoglobin of only 10.5 mg/dL (105 mmol/L). Anyway, it had been down to 8.5 mg/dL (850 mmol/L after her immunizations... and recurrent fever

I think I'm good with meats now... she's eating red meat, but rally didn't want it. I do think back to The Fast Doctor saying we should be careful forcing food on children, but honestly, with my little girl, it's the junkfood that I have to get rid of. Then she'll eat better...

any suggestions re: creative ways to incorporate vegetables are welcome. I'm not one to lead by example as I'm not the biggest veggie eater either, but I love beans and rice and I think that's healthy.

My friend recently suggested a book on bringing whole proteins into the diet, complementary proteins as she has children who are being raised vegetarian. I'll have to get her suggestion on that book again.

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17 Jul 2010 18:45 #4794 by TheFastDoctor
TheFastDoctor replied the topic: VITAMINS PROS AND CONS
Interesting posts.

Do remember that ALL proteins come from plants.. those who eat animal produts only take in proteins that has already been eaten.. Sure, animals re-arrange the sequence of amino acids in the proteins, but all the amino acids did originally come from plants. I am a bit selfish, always wants to be the first one to eat a nutrient. Not allow the plankon to be eaten by the krill to be eaten by the fish to be eaten by the chicken to be eaten by... sometimes the same nutrient has passed through many other organisms before people eat them!

André

All my posts are "generic", based on my opinions and experiences only and are not intended to replace the advice of your own licensed medical practitioner.
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